For this post, I’m piggy-backing off of an interesting discussion that Brad Brock called my attention to this week. Here’s an excerpt from the blog of Scott Adams, the Dilbert cartoonist:
This will look like a rhetorical question, but it’s not. I’m still trying to figure out how religious people interpret their environment. Here’s something that has always puzzled me.You’ve probably seen the studies showing that the smarter you are, and the more you know, the less likely you are religious. The studies are usually expressed in terms of education. High school dropouts are more religious than people who finished graduate school, etc.
We’re talking averages here. Obviously there are plenty of smart, educated religious people. But on the whole, the more you know, the less likely it is that you will buy into a religion. The correlation is quite striking.
This squares with my own observations. When I encounter extra-smart people who are also religious, I tend to ask a lot of questions trying to find out why. What I have discovered is this: Under my special powers of interrogation, the extra-smart religious people almost always admit (privately) that their religion is more of a choice than a perception. In other words, for the extra-smart, the concept of God exists, and that concept benefits their lives, independent of any literal truth. It’s a lot like being an atheist while keeping the benefits of being religious. That’s exactly the sort of extra-smart solution you would expect from extra-smart people.
My puzzlement is over the question of how the true religious people interpret the fact that the smartest and most educated people in the world are, on average, far less religious. These are the explanations I can think of:
1. There is no correlation between intelligence/education and religion. Where do you get you so-called “facts” cartoon boy?
2. Religion comes from the heart, not the head. I missed the biology class that says the heart is just a blood pump.
3. God doesn’t like intelligent/educated people so he wants fewer of them in heaven.
4. I didn’t know about that intelligence/education/religion correlation. But now that I do, I renounce my religion!
5. What’s an “average”?
Can the believers among you tell me if I left anything off the list?
If you want to look at some of the 495 comments made that day, you can find them here. (Adams also has a follow-up post here.) But I’d like to throw open a question that Adams touches on: How do you, personally, reconcile your Christian beliefs with being an educated critical thinker?
To start the conversation, here’s what I posted after most of the discussion was done:
I think intellectuals resist being lumped in with non-critical thinkers who make silly claims (religious or otherwise) that don’t hold water. I know I do. And it must be admitted that Christians say some pretty silly (and at times even evil) things.For me, though, the strongest argument in favor of Christianity does not start with theological claims but with the life of Jesus. A critical thinker can pick apart a theological argument about Jesus, but to consider that someone would love his enemies, turn the other cheek to those who would kill him, befriend the whores and lepers of society, claiming that they are the ones God wants a relationship with, and be crucified –– that’s enough to undo just about anyone. (And however skeptical you might be about the four gospels, this much of the depiction of Jesus is historically sound, even from a secular standpoint; if he existed at all, he clearly helped the marginalized and died on a cross.)
As an intellectual who is still a believer, I believe that the life Jesus lived undergirds Christian claims that he was the Son of God –– indeed God himself. If God were to become human, I think Jesus is who he would be. That, and the fact that a strong historical argument can be made for the resurrection (as long as you don’t rule it out a priori on naturalistic grounds) are enough to keep me a believer.
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April 24th, 2006 at 11:08 am
I wasn’t going to post yet, but I couldn’t help myself, and I love topics like this.
I will admit that I have not read the entire Scott Adams article yet, but where is the mention of faith. I do understand the difference between faith and religion (at least on some levels). To understand how “how religious people interpret their environment”, shouldn’t faith come into the picture?
Faith is a struggle. I have found in the secular communities that most perceive faith as a lower social level \ intelligence level \ education level concept. However, as Christians, faith must and does transcend all of that.
So the next argument becomes religion vs. faith.
April 25th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Hopefully I pass the test for being labeled intellectual and therefore can comment here. Please don’t use your intellectual PhD powers to make my comment look stupid.
sc(c)oots said “For me, though, the strongest argument in favor of Christianity does not start with theological claims but with the life of Jesus.”
then
“If God were to become human, I think Jesus is who he would be.”
Seems to me that you are indeed starting out with theological claims about God otherwise how would one be able to describe how they think God would be in the flesh.
April 25th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
I guess I look at it like this.
You can’t prove God. You can’t. I just know that God exists…though yes, from time to time I do doubt.
With respect, the life of Jesus isn’t what may belief rests upon. It’s based rather upon the inner witness and my sense of wonder when I think about the complexity of the world and the way I have seen God work and heard of Him working in the lives of others.
What does all this mean? I do believe…help my unbelief.
April 28th, 2006 at 10:20 am
I’m a little confused about what Adams intends to accomplish. I assume it’s this:
I didn’t know about that intelligence/education/religion correlation. But now that I do, I renounce my religion!
Which is just ridiculous. Even when a person is questioning their religion, I suspect it’s shoehorned into their psyche tightly enough that it’s not going to let go just because of smart-people-envy.
Also, really smart people will recognize that the results of these studies don’t constitute proof or even evidence for the existence of God. You can’t just add up the IQs of the people who believe a thing and prove whether it’s true.
I suspect that 200 years ago, the results of these studies would have been much different, suggesting that this is a cultural phenomenon and not one based on the actual truth or falsity of any religion. Unless, of course, we have recently learned some important new truths that disprove the existence of God.*
*We haven’t, unless you insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis. Then you’re pretty much screwed.
April 28th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
For Christianity in particular I think we have a problem in our churches where you are expected to absorb the theology/doctrine/ideas as is and don’t bring up questions about them. Then someone decides to venture into academia and is forced to critically think. They develop questions about their beliefs but when they go back to their christian culture the christians just say “don’t question it” or “those crazy liberal scholars are infiltrating your head.” Also, I think many christians are brought up to believe that the higher academics (especially science) is set against their religion so they should avoid it which would be another factor in why there seemingly fewer religious smart people.
April 29th, 2006 at 2:34 am
A few comments:
FIRST:
I think we have a problem in our churches where you are expected to absorb the theology/doctrine/ideas as is and don’t bring up questions about them. Then someone decides to venture into academia and is forced to critically think.
I think that’s a good point, Connor, and it also matches my experience. Around the start of my senior year of high school I started questioning my faith, and then when I got to college and found out that my church had presented things simplistically, I felt betrayed, not to mention frightened.
SECOND:
Seems to me that you are indeed starting out with theological claims about God otherwise how would one be able to describe how they think God would be in the flesh.
I intended to make two different points. The first is merely that Jesus is compelling, that anyone who looks at his life as described in the synoptics should feel they are finding Truth, in some sense, there.
(I should note that I’m assuming that Jesus’ claims about his own divinity in John are actually the church’s confessions, and that in “real life” Jesus’ own words about his relationship to God were more vague, as, e.g., in the synoptics.)
The second point is that, given Christian claims about who Jesus is, looking at Jesus’ compelling life lends support. It doesn’t prove the theological claims, it just makes them plausible. But I think most people would be more willing to consider the theological claims if they first considered Jesus’ person.
THIRD:
So the next argument becomes religion vs. faith.
Hey, Scott (Slaughter)! Good to hear from you. I wonder how we know if we have faith and not just religion? I’ve been reading a book by Soren Kierkegaard where he does his best to insist that in Scripture, faith is far more difficult than we like to think.
In particular, he says, if faith is what it took for Abraham to lift up his knife to sacrifice Isaac, then surely we should consider it a project for an entire lifetime rather than something we just sort of naturally fall into.
Scott Adams notes that for “extra-smart” religious people, “religion is more of a choice than a perception.” Now, I think Adams means that smart people don’t have the perception of God (i.e., they’re too smart for that sort of thing), so they have to replace it with choice. That’s overly simplistic.
But I think there actually is a pretty important distinction present in what he said, that relates to what you said. Although, as you mention, faith has to transcend these categories, I think it’s closer to a decision than a perception. A perception could make Abraham believe that God existed, but only a decision –– though more than just a decision –– could cause him to trust God enough to sacrifice Isaac.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:14 am
Abraham and Isaac? Bleh. If that’s faith, then it’s a pretty crappy result for a lifelong effort.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
“I’ve been reading a book by Soren Kierkegaard where he does his best to insist that in Scripture, faith is far more difficult than we like to think.”
Of course it is. I would love to think that I can just say, “I have faith” and then someday I go to heaven. I agree…life, God, Jesus, and salivation are all much more complicated that that. One must have the personal relationship with God, as they say.
“I think it’s closer to a decision than a perception.”
Oh! To the difficult realm of subjective thought we have wondered. Perception to the secular community is reality. I know that has become trite in recent years, but take it from my perspective
and see how it relates to reality.
I have worked at a software company for 6yrs now. I have risen to the height of director over a department I created (I know, “ooo”), and I am basically the sole individual in the company to have specific knowledge about my area as well as several other unrelated areas. Basically it’s what called indispensable in my world.
At least that is my perception. But that could all change in an instant if a different perception is had by others in the company. Then my family, my home, my church, everything is under thumb of a perception. That is real.
But that is secular world.
You are completely right. Faith is a decision. In a similar way, many of the things God wants us to do require decisions and hard work to fulfill. Marriage, tithing, etc. These are also things society has made efforts to make us believe are “easy”.
So is Adams falling into the secular\social hole where the easy lifestyle should be the way of life?
May 1st, 2006 at 5:15 pm
Abraham and Isaac? Bleh. If that’s faith, then it’s a pretty crappy result for a lifelong effort.
Kierkegaard puts it this way: “What is it to be God’s chosen? Is it to be denied in youth one’s youthful desire in order to have it fulfilled in great travail in old age?”
The implication is that faith in God’s promise means believing it even when the time has passed in which the promise could reasonably come true.
But hey –– if God is his own end (and not just a means of getting to heaven), then I might be willing to make that trade.
I’m planning to finish reading Fear and Trembling next week, and then I’ll do a full-blown post and try to make some people angry. I think Kierkegaard’s like that –– his take on God either attracts or repels. Personally, I’m hooked.
May 2nd, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Sorry, I meant I’m really confused by that bit about Abraham sacrificing Isaac. (Unless it was Molech playing a big trick on Abraham?)
[So is Adams falling into the secular\social hole where the easy lifestyle should be the way of life?]
Slaughter, I totally didn’t understand all that stuff you just said.
I think Kierkegaard’s like that –– his take on God either attracts or repels. Personally, I’m hooked.
Was Kierkegaard a spiritual masochist? Just wondering. =)
May 2nd, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Count me as a believer too.
In fact, and I realize that I am skewing the topic a bit, I find my intellectual life consumed with matters of faith and matters of faith are mostly only fully addressed for me when they make sense intellectually. I tend to love God with my mind, and things that don’t make sense really bother me until they do.
But enough of that… I am thrilled to have bumped into my old college buddy. I hope all is well with you. It has been a few years.
Many blessings….
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:28 am
[So is Adams falling into the secular\social hole where the easy lifestyle should be the way of life?]
Slaughter, I totally didn’t understand all that stuff you just said.
I was trying to ask, if Adam’s position is so far removed from God that he cannot understand what a religious person might be going through.
If it is Christianity, Islam, Judaism…all types are equidistant from his views. So, going back to the original question from Adams…I’m still trying to figure out how religious people interpret their environment.
I’m wondering if he will ever be able to understand how we interpret our environment.
May 3rd, 2006 at 10:30 am
totally unrelated, but have you seen the new mac ads?
very nice.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
shameless plug here….
all are invited to my site as well. im opening a semi-private forum for friends and family.
www.slaughterdigital.com
May 7th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
related question: how much control do we have over what we believe?
May 11th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
I think the question Scott raised (hi Scott!) pertains less to reconciling faith and education, or faith and intellect, and more to reconciling one’s intellectual development with a lack of critical discourse in many Christian communities; or perhaps, a lack of a Christian critical discourse altogether. It’s not that educated people can’t be religious, or that they have to justify their faith in quasi-intellectual terms. Rather, it’s how do they respond when faced with an intellectual vacuum in their respective Christian communities? Let’s face it — by and large, when it comes to a critical discussion of any social topic outside the four corners of the Bible, modern Christian communities are intellectually bankrupt. First, I have yet to hear a meaningful Christian discussion of say immigration reform, preemptive warfare, welfare reform, affirmative action, Darfur genocide, etc. Most Christians likely have an opinion on those matters, but there’s certainly no critical discussion of or even interest in them within a church or community. Even with highly publicized social issues like abortion, Christian communities have not produced a critical discourse. Certainly, most Christians agree that abortion is morally wrong, but there is no meaningful discourse regarding whether or not it should be outlawed — after all, there are plenty of morally wrong things that remain legal — i.e. coveting thy neighbor’s wife, gambling, gluttony, etc. Rather, when it comes to issues of social importance, most Christians take the easy way out — if the Bible says abortion is wrong, then we shall not have it. And while theologically that may be perfectly correct, unless we live in a theocracy that approach isn’t worth much.
Second, it is often difficult to reconcile one’s educational level with one’s Christian community because of numerous Christian non-sequiturs. These are statements like the following: “we are in the world but not of the world,” therefore, we should not concern ourselves with foreign affairs. Or, we are Christian nation, therefore we should have a Christian government. Hermeneutical issues aside, there is simply no logical connection between those premises and conclusions.
In other words, in my humble opinion, before Christian communities can achieve a critical discourse and relate to their social environment like their educated secular or non-Christian coutnerparts, they must see themselves as global citizens, as well as Christians, and develop a concern for issues outside the four corners of the good book.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
tada!
It’s not fair to say that it’s a question of IQ but Ignorance is Bliss because once you open that theological door you’re going to immediately discover (much to your chagrin I might add) that this room does not have a floor aieeeeyh!
There aren’t any walls or ceiling either for that matter. You are about to cling to the door frame with all of your might and kick yourself for opening it.
My mantra, “If you are too DIAGNOSTIC about Life you will DIE AGNOSTIC” is what I have been telling myself ever since I opened that door aieeeyh!
June 19th, 2006 at 6:52 am
I think the problem is when you go to a church, or read Christian literature, that tells you not to question the Bible, because if you do, you are on the road to apostacy. For that reason, many Christians are unable to defend their faith, although it does not mean their faith is not genuine. They are just deprived of tools when confronted and have to convince their detractors about the presence of the Spirit in their life and their many blessings.
I came from a conservative church that discouraged any unorthodox attempt. I am not saying they were wrong, I am only saying that thinking God might have taken longer than 6 days to create the Earth does not make you a slave to Satan. Some people are just happy not to question and they just believe what they’re told by their preachers. Those who question may be rejected by their church and feel that their church just lied to them.
I don’t belong to any church anymore. I don’t think the church I attended lied. I just think they held some truth for reasons that belong to another debate. Leaving the church did not mean I was leaving my faith.
I love studying the Scriptures and different commentaries and essays about the Old or the New Testament. I guess I am in the quest to find the Truth, not to leave God aside, but to understand him better. I have read many books that have puzzled me and shaken my faith in the very Word of God, and from an intellectual point of view, it could have shattered my faith completely.
Keeping the faith does not have to be a blind thing. We can question, we can doubt and search. We might not like what we find, but if it does not shatter our faith, it will make it stronger, because knowledge can only set you free.
My mind and heart sometimes struggle against one another, but they both get stronger and get to understand each other better in the long run.
To me, this great blog of yours does just that: You manage to speak to my mind and to my heart (or faith)and you nurture my knowledge and faith… Thank you…
June 20th, 2006 at 4:46 am
Howdy All!
I must say I am blown away by the thoughts and ideas here, seething with intelligence: sharp minds further sharpened by some of the best education in earth history, for it’s only in our generation that we have been able to determine events, in amazing specificity, about the very beginnings of life and of the universe.
I didn’t graduate high school, so, understandably, I’m impressed with you all. Many things are very confusing for me and I find that educated people can often help me see clearly where before was only confusion. In fact, my wife, an English Teacher, typed this up for me
(Hello everyone! - Cindy)
I have only one question, that only recently occurred to me to ask:
What is truth?
I have heard the terms “Intellectual,” “Critical Thinker,” and/or perhaps “Intelligentsia” used a lot here and have concluded this means certain people are better equipped to ascertain truth, otherwise…what is the benefit of being a bona fide intelligentsia member?
So what is truth? What is the litmus test for truth? How does one know one is in possession of truth? Does everyone have equal access to truth or are some privileged in this manner? Does a man with an IQ of 100 and little education have the same access as a man with an IQ of 145 and lots of education?
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely,
High School Dropout
June 20th, 2006 at 5:11 am
Howdy All!
…And the opposite scenario - are smart people less subject to believing lies?
If there is a God, it seems very unfair indeed to make some people with both a privileged access to truth and the added benefit of being more resistant to deception. Surely, if there is some eternal life/God/etc, smart people have a better chance, apparently.
Are dumb people just screwed? Maybe that’s why there are so many dumb people, because all they know how to do is mate like rabbits, as the truth, as Scott Adams has proven, largely alludes them and they have turned to religious myths fit only for fools.
I think if I were a genius, I would be better prepared to tell if Jesus was divine or a trick. Perhaps I should simply trust in the smart people who, as is clear, mostly don’t believe in God. That seems like a smart thing to do, like betting on a horse or a stock when one has inside information. Except in this case, unlike with Martha Stewart, it would not be illegal - just relying on the wit and wisdom of those smarter and far more educated. Surely that’s a good strategy, instead of throwing in with the dullard fundamentalists. How many Nobel Prize winning fundamentalists do you know?
I think I have a plan - follow the smart educated people - surely they have the truth more than the less intelligent. Because, as a few posters have pointed out - it’s impossible, even for smart people, to know there is a God. So in a case where it’s not knowable, or at the very least can’t be proven; following the smart Ph.D. types seems prudent and the best way to benefit from the truth they know.
Sincerely,
High School Dropout
PS. Special thanks to Cindy for typing this and checking my grammar!!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:25 am
Talk of proof huh?
Is proof over-rated? What does it mean that one “can’t prove God…you just can’t?” How useful is proof if the most important things are the most knowable things are the most “unprovable” things? One can prove things like the number of oxygen molecules in a space…but so what. What use will recounting facts to God be on judgement day?
In fact, very little is provable, and that which is, is largely inaccessible by sheer time limitations: 99.9% of education is faith based. Check your text books friends - it’s all faith.
Or do you have the time, patience, resources or even inclination to check out all the nice stories and “facts” your professors tell you? It might be a fact, but it’s faith to you until you prove it…right?
People RARELY require proof to take something as fact. Think about this for a while and you will have to conclude it’s true when you compare what you have proven to yourself in your educational pursuits compared with what you have simply uncritically taken on faith. (Of course you would NEVER EVER admit you took anything into your beliefs uncritically but isn’t it true?”
While at the same time fundi Christians are lambasted for not getting all caught up in the critical thinking game you yourselves, rarely, actually in truth and in fact, hardly get involved in. Critical thinking is largely suspended in the face of esteemed well matriculated scholars.
Sure, one can deny this, but this doesn’t effect this phenomenon. Haven’t we all seen the experiments where a man is presented as a well spoken tall scholar and is believed in a statistically significant way while the bum (or fundi Christian), not so much.
Have scientists and academia really persuaded us that truth must be proven to be true? What kind of modern madness is it that limits or degrades truths according to what lab tests and equipment can or can not measure? Science is the god of many - truth rises and falls with the approval or rejection of science.
Evolution? Something 99.9% of it’s adherents believe UNCRITICALLY. Show me your data and I’ll show you a heaping pile of faith. Notably, most people haven’t actually even studied the data but vehemently defend Evolution. It deserves a capital letter because it’s a faith based religion ~especially~ to those not intimately familiar with the data.
Isn’t there such a thing as a priori knowledge? Aren’t their myriad things I (eg. you) can’t even prove to myself (yourself), like that sometimes I’m wistful, sometimes I’m filled with ennui, sometimes I want to do good and be noble, that I have thoughts, feelings, love, a desire to live and a desire to die or that I am basically evil?
Can any of us prove that the naked poopy baby pictures our parents show at parties are really us?
I can’t prove these things to myself at all - I just know they exist. Who can prove yesterday existed? I can’t. Who can prove this kitten is happy:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3534/3206/1600/kitty32.jpg
I can’t, but some things are obvious and transcend the need for proof.
Some are ignorant of this fact: We have equipment in our hearts, souls, minds, and spirits for testing ultimate truth. Science will NEVER be in possession of this equipment. This proof providing equipment is not metal or plastic and this disturbs some to the point that they say silly things like “Duher…we can’t prove God.” This is a lie and everyone’s equipment says so.
God told Paul to say that anyone who says they can’t see that there is a God is a liar without excuse who is suppressing this truth yet claiming to be wise while simultaneously thinking in a futile manner, for starters.
Romans 1:18-21 godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities– his eternal power and divine nature– have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Many brilliant minds are wed to the idea that proper truth testing equipment should be metal, plastic, or at a bare minimum something we can touch and buy. It’s the strangest most confusing thing to some, the notion that the most sensitive truth detector for the job is within each of us to listen to, or suppress.
Love,
Garden_of_Lies